Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi friends,

I've been pretty absent from the forum past few years- but some will recognise me as being busy with my guitarbench magazine.

I've also been very busy as a family doctor in Singapore- and have been taking a postgrad occupational medicine course.

As part of this course, I am writing up a case report and I would like to focus on occupational illness in luthiers. It will be entirely anonymous and will require only a short period of correspondence and possible some shop photos.

I hope if anyone has had a skin, liver or lung problem related to luthiery, you would like to share your story with me!

I can be reached on tan.terence@gmail.com

Warmest regards,
Terence

I am too allergic to epoxy to use it. Depending upon the circumstances and brand of epoxy, the symptoms can be different.

In the past, instances when I cleaned up with solvent, such as ethanol or naphtha it seemed to prevent the problem, but just soap and water was not enough. The typical reaction would be a delayed itching and maybe hives on my wrists, even though the exposure was only on my fingertips.

The most recent example was using a patch material for a dent in the plastic bathtub. The cheap gloves that came with it tore. The instructions claimed that soap and water wash up was sufficient. Even though I should have known better, I was lazy and relied on the soap and water. One hour later, my nose suddenly closed up and got drippy. For two or three weeks I had the most uncomfortable stuffy drippy nose I ever had. I packed my nose with paper towel to deal with the dripping.

When I was about 13 years old, I thought I would invent a new glue. I mixed epoxy with a plexiglass solvent, something like ammonium dichloride. The solvent apparently carried the epoxy into my blood and throughout my body. My skin turn bright red like a sunburn and hurt to the touch. Just my clothes rubbing was painful. I did this on two occasions before I was sure it was the glue mix.

For lung disease, I once searched the Internet and found specific, different named diseases for workers exposed to redwood dust, mahogany dust, and mist from pressure water stripping of maple bark. There are probably more.

My asthma can be sensitive just to odor. I had a western red cedar fence installed a few years ago. Even several months after installation, when I got within a few yards of the fence, the odor caused my asthma to flair slightly, and this was at a time when my asthma had been virtually symptomless for years.

I have not yet had contact dermatitis from the wood, but it took four years to figure out that my symptoms like poison ivy were from my orchids, which is also documented in the literature.

Hunched over a bench for long periods can result in terrible lower Back pain. I have bouts of it that can keep me away from the bench for weeks at a time. I once posted a thread about it on a woodworkers forum. The replies ran into 4 or 5 pages and I discovered that my Back pain was nothing compared to some of theirs! Seemingly a real occupational hazard.

OSHA is not in the shop, looking over our shoulder to make sure we are working safely. I have found that some of the most important items in my shop are safety glasses/goggles, respirator,ear plugs/muff, rubber gloves, dust collector, good lighting and the right seat for the bench I am working at. I was a machine repair/millwright for 40 years before retirement and, thank God, I was faithful to my personal protective equipment. We must protect ourselves. Mom is not there.

Does occasional bouts of laziness count?


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Bad right shoulder, sore thumb joint on right hand, probably both caused by scraping and sanding, allergy to CA glue fumes and western red cedar. We all work carelessly on some activities in the shop even though we know better.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

My left shoulder was hurting quite a bit. I was referred to a orthopedist who said I had torn my rotator cuff. I said, “ but Doc, I haven’t been doing extreme sports or even playing football, all I’ve been doing is finishing a couple of guitars, holding them on a stick in my left hand while spraying with my right”. He said that could have easily done it. People in my age group, late 50’s, are apparently prone to this. This happened last summer and I still experience some discomfort, although, it is much better. I have been resistant to surgery. The shoulder hurt for several months, even after a couple of cortisone shots. I have purchased Stew Mac’s “Freehand Holder” and it seems to work quite well. I thought about making something and then I said "what the hell" and I bought it. It should save my shoulder.

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

I have had a respirator fail when shooting urethane clear. Bad stuff to get into you lungs and you don't know it failed until too late. I have started to shoot more lacquer and less urethane these days over it. Also, i wear goggles and a dust mask more often when sanding now, I developed an allergy to maple and mahogany that I didn't used to have.

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Whatever you do DON'T confuse me as an EXPERT, or MASTER, just a self learned trial and error guy. I had to build a dozen guitar before I found out what a "Luthier" even was (????)

I was diagnosed with COPD this past December.
The next stage will be emphysema.
As I posted in another thread a few minutes ago, I have been around nasty stuff all my life and never thought twice about it. Yeah, heavy smoker, too.
I`m back into construction again (it`s in my blood), and soon to be 51 years old, I shouldn`t have to ask my co-workers to move heavy things for me.
In the morning, it takes at least two cups of coffee, a puff from an inhaler, and downing an energy drink to get my heart rate up enough to process the air that I take in. Then and only then am I able to get around and on my feet.
Not Good. I know that I`m heading down a dead end track at full speed.
I thought that I would be able to kick the smoking habit, but when you`ve been doing something for 35 years, it`s pretty tough to quit. Call me a nicotine junkie.
My advice to old and young alike...
If there`s a smell or dust particles hanging in the air, get away from the area, or make it go away by whatever suitable means necessary (don`t endanger others around you, including pets).
It`s not what you can see, it`s the particulates that are small enough to get by the conventional filtration means that will get you.
Oh, and not curable nor reversible.
Not whining and complaining, mind you, but something very real.
More people should be aware of this.

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Give me 50 cents worth of regular.
Check my oil too, if you don`t mind,,,

YOU call you a nicotine junkie. No one else. You have COPD and smoke? Are you out of your mind?
I've had COPD and emphysema for 10 years, and you won't like it if you keep smoking. Medication is very costly, even with the best insurance, and then there is oxygen. You will get panic attacks where you won't be able to breathe. You won't be able to walk up a flight of stairs without stopping and waiting till you can breathe again. You will catch colds at the drop of a hat AND they will take months to get rid of. You will die a horrible death in the hospital.
I smoked 2 packs a day for over 48 years, worked as a cabinetmaker for 30 years inhaling everything from formeldehyde to lacquer and every dust you can think of including MOP.
I've only got a few more instruments in me and then that is over too. I take every precaution to insure that dust and fumes are out of sight. I can't walk down the block without getting ill from scented dryer sheets. I sleep with oxygen and exercise/walk (a must for COPD) with an O2 generator strapped to my back.
You (if you want to live) ought to reconsider your inability to quit. Quit EVERY day if you have to. Just quit. You can do it. I did. If I could get one day back, I would take it.

When I started smoking I told myself I would smoke for 10 years and then quit. After 13 years I managed to do it. I haven't smoked for 29 years but I still get the urge to light one up sometimes (but I don't). After quitting I found I didn't need an inhaler and I really noticed how much it makes things stink.

Quite scary reading all this, actually makes me quite pleased that woodworking can only ever be a hobby for me.

Haans' words are more effective than mine I'm sure but I'm 28 and gave up tobacco at the beginning of July after 11 years of 20+ a day (40 if drinking). Still early days but I have high hopes. I did it overnight and without any aids because my dad did and male bravado (or father/son competitiveness) compelled me to be able to do anything he could.

My main reason for giving up was that my calves had begun to burn with pain after only short walks. Not a good idea trying to power muscles with carbon monoxide. Since I gave up, I've been able to walk any distance up any incline with no pain. Feels really good. Seems it was all down to oxygen deprivation.

Maybe some people are more susceptible to nicotine addiction than others. Maybe some people just have stronger will power. But I feel no chemical addiction whatsoever. I'm convinced I was addicted to the habit far more than the nicotine.

Just give up for a month. Surely no one is so hopelessly addicted that they can't stop something for one measly month? If, after that month, you still want to smoke, well, that's your decision.

EDIT: As I said above, I know it's early days for me. I don't mean to sound like one of those insufferable ex-smokers. I know that I could relapse so I need to keep strong.

Here's someone with no ill effects. Building 9 years, faithful to PPE, and dust management. Stopped french polishing, went to nitro. That was going to burn out my arm. Everything jigged on tablesaw and tools, so fingers don't handle small pieces near blades. Bench was built to comfortable height for me, never stoop over. Good lighting, extraction fan in basement assembly area to keep dust or fumes out of rest of house. Dedicated heated outdoor spray booth. It can be done 100% safely, but you need to spend some money and invest time in researching the hazards and solutions.

I've become extremely sensitive to dust, and have decided that this guitar I'm working on is likely to be my last. Doesn't matter what timber, the dust does me in, even in minute quantities.

Case in point: Iwas sanding my latest and wore a respirator, outdoors, with an industrial fan blowing from behind me. I blew myself off with compressed air, in the fan stream, and took off my clothes immediately.

Result: Two days and counting of complete congestion, difficulty breathing and sleeping, etc.

Conclusion: I need to find a different avocation.

Next hobby: Knife making. Forge in the design phase and materials accumulation begun.

Last guitar will be the parlour I've entered into the current challenge. Then I'll sell of the stash and equipment that I'll no longer need. It'll be sad, but I've gotten a lot from building and will always have the guitars I've built, so I'm content.

As for smoking. I, too, am 51. I, too, smoked 20-40 cigarettes a day for 35 years or so. I quit 19 months ago, and will never smoke again. I can walk, run, exercise, sleep, etc better than any time in the past 20 years, and I understand I'll continue to gain improved lung function as I continue being a non-smoker.

Quit, if you can. Cut down if you can't, but always with an eye to giving the dang things up. They will kill you.

I used Champix, and nicorette lozenges and took around three months to give them up, but quitting was much harder than not smoking, and, in the end, easier than it might have been.

Tho I'll no longer be building, I will try to participate here as best I can, and look forward to seeing what you all are doing in the future.

I smoked all my life. I'm seventy now. Quit smoking 4/10/07. I've had open heart surgery. Have a defibrillator and pacemaker. I have COPD but a steroid and two different inhalers. I mask up even to use my bandsaw. I have too if I don't the dust gets me. Sanding dust of any wood is a terrible thing to breathe. Can't walk or stand to long anymore so I have a stool for my tools. Have terrible circulation. But I don't think I can lay that off to smoking. I have an annurism that's over 5 cm. they can't operate they say my heart wouldn't take it. Oh yeah it only pumps 15% but 48% is normal. I kinda live one day at a time and enjoy every one of them.


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Yours is an extremely rare reaction to stopping smoking. 99.9% of people who quit go through absolute torture. Which is why your 'measly month' is odd: that's the worst time, by far! In fact after 6 weeks or so the vast majority (perhaps all) of the physical dependence is over. You are then left with a psychological dependence, which can last for years.
I quit 4 years ago but had numerous attempts over the years. Virtually every attempt failed within 8 hours of quitting. Occasionally I still get the urge. Perhaps once every couple of months. Thankfully the urge lasts all of a few seconds. That's the psychological factor kicking in.

As for sanding! Worse than smoking! I really hate it. I don't use sanding machines but hand sanding is a pain, Ebony and other exotics simply awful.
It's extremely rare that I sand the internal surfaces of an instrument. I rely on a sharp cabinet scraper and I honestly don't care if it looks a little 'organic'. Things like Back bars, struts, linings, end blocks are finished with the hand Plane. It never looks amateurish or unskilled, although it may not look as refined as some folk like.
I scrape the outer surfaces of the box including the soundboard but the Neck and heel is where I am forced to use an abrasive.
I can't entirely eliminate sanding (however much I want to) but at least I can minimise it. At one time I worked with a couple of Fiddle makers and they tend to use the scraper rather than an abrasive, which is why I work in the manner that I do. You might see it as a low tech approach.
I won't touch Nitro. Shellac and a couple of open windows is good enough for me.

Quitting smoking was difficult for me to say the least. I must have quit a million times. It is much worse than quitting drinking.
When I was told I had COPD, that was the end. I quit permanently. You cannot have COPD and smoke. Every cigarette is a huge nail. If you continue smoking with COPD, you will deteriorate quickly. You NEVER regain lung function. COPD doesn't get better. If you have had your lungs scanned, have them show you the scan. That ought to be enough to scare the he!! out of you.
My sister has smoked like a smokestack for 30 years and was just diagnosed last fall. She woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't breath. She spent several hours in emergency and that was the last cigarette she smoked. I watched my mother die of COPD. It's not a pretty sight. Just imagine how frightening it is to not be able to breathe and then smoke a cigarette and think of how much damage you just did to your lungs.
Same with those that think a little dust won't hurt you...you are only fooling yourself.

I agree Haans. I quit smoking using the chewing gum. About 12 weeks into it the gum began to upset my stomach. I switched to double mint. It's said that we never really break a habit only substitute a habit we're more happy with. My cousin died last year from COPD. Had been in a nursing home on oxygen for quite awhile. She wasn't a woodworker but a lifetime smoker. Ahh! If we could only go back in time.


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I suppose I shouldn't enter these sorts of discussions then. It would be an interesting study though to find out if there is some physical reason that it is easy for some people or if it is will power. Competition with my dad might have been the biggest factor for me. Maybe people should visualise someone who gave up for whom they have no respect and use that person to drive them on. My dad smoked an ounce a day in his pipe plus cigarettes in between! He gave up over night with no aids and never touched it again.

The reason I said "one measly month" is, if you think of a life time, putting aside addiction, one month is nothing. Four weeks goes by in the blink of an eye sometimes. I'm not sure I could have any respect for myself if I couldn't do something (or not do something) for one month. At least that was my way of thinking. It has been 6 and a half weeks now and I still feel like a cigarette after a meal would be enjoyable but get by without it. Biggest thing for me was drinking without smoking, normally I'd smoke 3 per pint. I've now had a couple of 7+ pint nights without smoking and, frankly, I'm enjoying the beer more, not less.

As for giving up milliions of times: This is my second time, but my heart was most definitely not in it the first time. I said I was going to give up but I didn't mean it like I did this time. I lasted one 10 hour flight and lit up as soon as i got out of the airport. You have to really want to give up to do it, not just know you should. And as for substituting one addiction for another: an old boss of mine replaced cigarettes with tangerines. I substituted smoking for not smoking. Nothing else. (Being highly cynical, I also think it is very much in the interests of those who make money from cigarettes and nicotine replacements to promote the idea that it is almost impossible to give up.)

And back on topic... I sweat profusely in hot weather - so much so that I need to wear a bandanna to stop sweat from dripping all over the wood I'm working on - and when wood dust gets on my sweaty forehead, it goes red and itchy. Not sure if that's an allergic reaction or just to be expected. only happens when I'm sweating I think.

There's a book called "The greatest salesman in the world" by Og Mandino. It is an understanding of habits. Why we are creatures of habit. There's ten scrolls. Each requiring thirty days to complete. I wish I could honestly say I've completed them. I've tried three times. Gotten as far into them as five months. Never could remember to do the necessary requirements. Something always came up. One begins to think maybe a Monk in a Middle Ages rectory(?),could accomplish the feat. does teach you how habits form your life. A good study of the book teaches you the basics I guess this isn't pertaining to health. Just the habit of smoking. I've been quit eight years now. When I first quit the smell of any smoke(leaves,brush,etc) made me sick. Just the other day a friend workman I had helping in my shop was smoking. I swear I started craving one of the dang things. Does it ever stop? Didn't crave it enough to smoke one but had to walk away.


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Yeah, everyone I know is constantly telling me, "yeah, but some people give up for ten years and then start again". And I know it. My dad has lasted 28 years (I'm 28 - coincidental?), so I intend to follow in his footsteps. At the rate he was smoking, he should have all kinds of problems now he's 70-odd. It seems he gave up at just the right time.

This October, it will be 30 years since I quit smoking. I would have a flash every now and then when I would smell a cigarette and crave one. That pretty much stopped at about 7-8 years, but everyone is different.
We all know the perils of smoking, so I'm not going to preach, but I was going through 2 1/2 packs a day, but I am stubborn enough to see things through when I challenge myself.
I don't think that I classify as a luthier, so I won't add my list of frailties to the list!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Alex I know there's a thread going on about luthiers what is one or what isn't. If you work on stringed instruments you are a luthier. That and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Lol


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